diff --git a/CHANGELOG.md b/CHANGELOG.md
index bfc3df90..b99fb1a5 100644
--- a/CHANGELOG.md
+++ b/CHANGELOG.md
@@ -69,6 +69,7 @@ Developers may need to change their code
 * [Code formatting: Change indentation style to space](https://github.com/clicon/clixon/issues/379)
   * Applies to all c/h/y/l/sh files and .editorconfig
 * C API changes
+  * Added `expanddefault` parameter to `xml_yang_validate_rpc()`
   * Added `defaults` parameter to `clicon_rpc_get_pageable_list()`
   * `clicon_rpc_commit()` and `cli_commit`
     * Added `confirmed`, `cancel`, `timeout`, `persist-id`, and `persist-id-val` parameters to
@@ -79,6 +80,7 @@ Developers may need to change their code
   
 ### Minor features
 
+* List-pagination: Adhere to ietf-draft: Removed list-pagination "presence"
 * Main example: Removed dependency of external IETF RFCs
   * See [Can't initiate clixon_backend](https://github.com/clicon/clixon/issues/382)
 * Added warning if modstate is not present in datastore if `CLICON_XMLDB_MODSTATE` is set.
diff --git a/apps/backend/backend_client.c b/apps/backend/backend_client.c
index d434ffc6..6c78e968 100644
--- a/apps/backend/backend_client.c
+++ b/apps/backend/backend_client.c
@@ -1388,7 +1388,7 @@ from_client_msg(clicon_handle        h,
         goto reply;
     }
     ce->ce_id = id;
-    if ((ret = xml_yang_validate_rpc(h, x, &xret)) < 0)
+    if ((ret = xml_yang_validate_rpc(h, x, 1, &xret)) < 0)
         goto done;
     if (ret == 0){
         if (clixon_xml2cbuf(cbret, xret, 0, 0, -1, 0) < 0)
diff --git a/apps/backend/backend_get.c b/apps/backend/backend_get.c
index c2996bc3..4f6476a3 100644
--- a/apps/backend/backend_get.c
+++ b/apps/backend/backend_get.c
@@ -385,11 +385,11 @@ get_nacm_and_reply(clicon_handle h,
  * @param[in]     h          Clixon handle
  * @param[in]     name       Name of attribute
  * @param[in]     defaultstr Default string which is accepted and sets value to 0
- * @param[in,out] cbret      Output buffer for internal RPC message if invalid
+ * @param[in,out] cbret      Output buffer for internal bad-element RPC message if invalid
  * @param[out]    value      Value
  * @retval       -1          Error
- * @retval        0          Invalid, cbret set
- * @retval        1          OK
+ * @retval        0          Invalid, netconf bad-element error cbret set
+ * @retval        1          OK (or not found)
  */
 static int
 element2value(clicon_handle  h,
@@ -545,6 +545,36 @@ with_defaults(cxobj *xe,
         return retval;
 }
 
+/*! Extract offset and limit from get/list-pagination
+ *
+ * @param[in]  h      Clicon handle 
+ * @param[in]  xe     Request: <rpc><xn></rpc> 
+ * @param[out] offset Number of entries in the working result-set that should be skipped
+ * @param[out] limit  Limits the number of entries returned from the working result-set
+ * @param[out] cbret  Return xml tree, eg <rpc-reply>..., <rpc-error.. 
+ * @retval    -1      Error
+ * @retval     0      Invalid, netconf bad-element error cbret set
+ * @retval     1      OK
+ */
+static int
+list_pagination_hdr(clicon_handle h,
+                    cxobj        *xe,
+                    uint32_t     *offset,
+                    uint32_t     *limit,
+                    cbuf         *cbret)
+{
+    int retval = -1;
+    
+    /* offset */
+    if ((retval = element2value(h, xe, "offset", "none", cbret, offset)) < 0)
+        goto done;
+    /* limit */
+    if (retval && (retval = element2value(h, xe, "limit", "unbounded", cbret, limit)) < 0)
+        goto done;
+ done:
+    return retval;
+}
+
 /*! Specialized get for list-pagination
  *
  * It is specialized enough to have its own function. Specifically, extra attributes as well
@@ -600,6 +630,10 @@ get_list_pagination(clicon_handle        h,
     char           *where = NULL;
 #endif
 
+    if (cbret == NULL){
+        clicon_err(OE_PLUGIN, EINVAL, "cbret is NULL");
+        goto done;
+    }
     /* Check if list/leaf-list */
     if (yang_path_arg(yspec, xpath?xpath:"/", &ylist) < 0)
         goto done;
@@ -635,11 +669,7 @@ get_list_pagination(clicon_handle        h,
             goto ok;
         }
     }
-    /* offset */
-    if ((ret = element2value(h, xe, "offset", "none", cbret, &offset)) < 0)
-        goto done;
-    /* limit */
-    if (ret && (ret = element2value(h, xe, "limit", "unbounded", cbret, &limit)) < 0)
+    if ((ret = list_pagination_hdr(h, xe, &offset, &limit, cbret)) < 0)
         goto done;
 #ifdef NOTYET
     /* direction */
@@ -662,6 +692,8 @@ get_list_pagination(clicon_handle        h,
     if (ret && (x = xml_find_type(xe, NULL, "where", CX_ELMNT)) != NULL)
         where = xml_body(x);
 #endif
+    if (ret == 0)
+        goto ok;
     /* Read config */
     switch (content){
     case CONTENT_CONFIG:    /* config data only */
@@ -860,6 +892,8 @@ get_common(clicon_handle        h,
     cxobj         **xvec = NULL;
     size_t          xlen;
     cxobj          *xfind;
+    uint32_t        offset = 0;
+    uint32_t        limit = 0;
     
     clicon_debug(1, "%s", __FUNCTION__);
     username = clicon_username_get(h);
@@ -900,8 +934,21 @@ get_common(clicon_handle        h,
         }
     }
     /* Check if list pagination */
-    if ((xfind = xml_find_type(xe, NULL, "list-pagination", CX_ELMNT)) != NULL)
-        list_pagination = 1;
+    if ((xfind = xml_find_type(xe, NULL, "list-pagination", CX_ELMNT)) != NULL){
+        /* with non-presence list-pagination, use ad-hoc algorithm to determine
+         * whether list-pagination is enabled:
+         * offset!=0 && limit!=unbounded
+         */
+        /* offset */
+        if ((ret = element2value(h, xfind, "offset", "none", cbret, &offset)) < 0)
+            goto done;
+        /* limit */
+        if (ret && (ret = element2value(h, xfind, "limit", "unbounded", cbret, &limit)) < 0)
+            goto done;
+        if (ret == 0)
+            goto ok;
+        list_pagination = (offset != 0 || limit != 0);
+    }
     /* Sanity check for list pagination: path must be a list/leaf-list, if it is,
      * check config/state
      */
diff --git a/apps/netconf/netconf_main.c b/apps/netconf/netconf_main.c
index e2789db4..7703ba3b 100644
--- a/apps/netconf/netconf_main.c
+++ b/apps/netconf/netconf_main.c
@@ -223,7 +223,7 @@ netconf_rpc_message(clicon_handle h,
     if ((ret = xml_bind_yang_rpc(xrpc, yspec, &xret)) < 0)
         goto done;
     if (ret > 0 &&
-        (ret = xml_yang_validate_rpc(h, xrpc, &xret)) < 0) 
+        (ret = xml_yang_validate_rpc(h, xrpc, 0, &xret)) < 0) 
         goto done;
     if (ret == 0){
         if (netconf_add_request_attr(xrpc, xret) < 0)
diff --git a/apps/restconf/restconf_methods_post.c b/apps/restconf/restconf_methods_post.c
index efad6236..b0926351 100644
--- a/apps/restconf/restconf_methods_post.c
+++ b/apps/restconf/restconf_methods_post.c
@@ -806,7 +806,7 @@ api_operations_post(clicon_handle h,
             goto done;
         goto ok;
     }
-    if ((ret = xml_yang_validate_rpc(h, xtop, &xerr)) < 0)
+    if ((ret = xml_yang_validate_rpc(h, xtop, 0, &xerr)) < 0)
         goto done;
     if (ret == 0){
         if (api_return_err0(h, req, xerr, pretty, media_out, 0) < 0)
diff --git a/lib/clixon/clixon_validate.h b/lib/clixon/clixon_validate.h
index 3ef67280..0f6483cc 100644
--- a/lib/clixon/clixon_validate.h
+++ b/lib/clixon/clixon_validate.h
@@ -43,7 +43,7 @@
 /*
  * Prototypes
  */
-int xml_yang_validate_rpc(clicon_handle h, cxobj *xrpc, cxobj **xret);
+int xml_yang_validate_rpc(clicon_handle h, cxobj *xrpc, int expanddefault, cxobj **xret);
 int xml_yang_validate_rpc_reply(clicon_handle h, cxobj *xrpc, cxobj **xret);
 int xml_yang_validate_add(clicon_handle h, cxobj *xt, cxobj **xret);
 int xml_yang_validate_list_key_only(cxobj *xt, cxobj **xret);
diff --git a/lib/src/clixon_validate.c b/lib/src/clixon_validate.c
index fec8bcbf..f30c6a51 100644
--- a/lib/src/clixon_validate.c
+++ b/lib/src/clixon_validate.c
@@ -324,6 +324,7 @@ validate_identityref(cxobj     *xt,
 /*! Validate an RPC node
  * @param[in]  h     Clicon handle
  * @param[in]  xrpc  XML node to be validated
+ * @param[in]  expanddefault 
  * @param[out] xret  Error XML tree. Free with xml_free after use
  * @retval     1     Validation OK
  * @retval     0     Validation failed
@@ -366,6 +367,7 @@ validate_identityref(cxobj     *xt,
 int
 xml_yang_validate_rpc(clicon_handle h,
                       cxobj        *xrpc,
+                      int           expanddefault,
                       cxobj       **xret)
 {
     int        retval = -1;
@@ -403,7 +405,7 @@ xml_yang_validate_rpc(clicon_handle h,
             goto done; /* error or validation fail */
         if (ret == 0)
             goto fail;
-        if (xml_default_recurse(xn, 0) < 0)
+        if (expanddefault && xml_default_recurse(xn, 0) < 0)
             goto done;
     }
     // ok: /* pass validation */
diff --git a/test/test_pagination_draft.sh b/test/test_pagination_draft.sh
index ba18114a..f83cac9a 100755
--- a/test/test_pagination_draft.sh
+++ b/test/test_pagination_draft.sh
@@ -379,6 +379,9 @@ fi
 new "wait restconf"
 wait_restconf
 
+new "Baseline: no pagination"
+expecteof_netconf "$clixon_netconf -qf $cfg" 0 "$DEFAULTHELLO" "<rpc $DEFAULTNS><get><filter type=\"xpath\" select=\"/es:members/es:member[es:member-id='alice']/es:favorites/es:uint8-numbers\" xmlns:es=\"http://example.com/ns/example-social\"/></get></rpc>" "<rpc-reply $DEFAULTNS><data><members xmlns=\"http://example.com/ns/example-social\"><member><member-id>alice</member-id><favorite"
+
 new "A.3.1.1. limit=1"
 testlimit 0 1 5 "17"
 
diff --git a/yang/mandatory/ietf-list-pagination-nc@2022-07-24.yang b/yang/mandatory/ietf-list-pagination-nc@2022-07-24.yang
index 031e478f..151c44a5 100644
--- a/yang/mandatory/ietf-list-pagination-nc@2022-07-24.yang
+++ b/yang/mandatory/ietf-list-pagination-nc@2022-07-24.yang
@@ -1,35 +1,35 @@
 module ietf-list-pagination-nc {
-    yang-version 1.1;
-    namespace "urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:yang:ietf-list-pagination-nc";
-    prefix lpgnc;
+  yang-version 1.1;
+  namespace "urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:yang:ietf-list-pagination-nc";
+  prefix lpgnc;
 
-    import ietf-netconf {
-        prefix nc;
-        reference
-            "RFC 6241: Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF)";
-    }
+  import ietf-netconf {
+    prefix nc;
+    reference
+      "RFC 6241: Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF)";
+  }
 
-    import ietf-netconf-nmda {
-        prefix ncds;
-        reference
-            "RFC 8526: NETCONF Extensions to Support the
+  import ietf-netconf-nmda {
+    prefix ncds;
+    reference
+      "RFC 8526: NETCONF Extensions to Support the
                  Network Management Datastore Architecture";
-    }
+  }
 
-    import ietf-list-pagination {
-        prefix lp;
-        reference
-            "RFC XXXX: List Pagination for YANG-driven Protocols";
-    }
+  import ietf-list-pagination {
+    prefix lp;
+    reference
+      "RFC XXXX: List Pagination for YANG-driven Protocols";
+  }
 
-    organization
-        "IETF NETCONF (Network Configuration) Working Group";
+  organization
+    "IETF NETCONF (Network Configuration) Working Group";
 
-    contact
-        "WG Web:   https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/netconf
+  contact
+      "WG Web:   https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/netconf
        WG List:  NETCONF WG list <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>";
-    description
-        "This module augments the <get>, <get-config>, and <get-data>
+  description
+    "This module augments the <get>, <get-config>, and <get-data>
      'rpc' statements to support list pagination.
 
      Copyright (c) 2021 IETF Trust and the persons identified
@@ -53,48 +53,47 @@ module ietf-list-pagination-nc {
      (RFC 8174) when, and only when, they appear in all
      capitals, as shown here.";
 
-    revision 2022-07-24 {
-        description
-            "Initial revision.";
-        reference
-            "RFC XXXX: NETCONF Extensions to Support List Pagination";
-    }
+  revision 2022-07-24 {
+    description
+      "Initial revision.";
+    reference
+      "RFC XXXX: NETCONF Extensions to Support List Pagination";
+  }
 
-    grouping pagination-parameters {
-        description "A grouping for list pagination parameters.";
-        container list-pagination {
-            description "List pagination parameters.";
-            presence "Flag that request contains pagination parameters";
-            uses lp:where-param-grouping;
-            uses lp:sort-by-param-grouping;
-            uses lp:direction-param-grouping;
-            uses lp:offset-param-grouping;
-            uses lp:limit-param-grouping;
-            uses lp:sublist-limit-param-grouping;
-        }
+  grouping pagination-parameters {
+    description "A grouping for list pagination parameters.";
+    container list-pagination {
+      description "List pagination parameters.";
+      uses lp:where-param-grouping;
+      uses lp:sort-by-param-grouping;
+      uses lp:direction-param-grouping;
+      uses lp:offset-param-grouping;
+      uses lp:limit-param-grouping;
+      uses lp:sublist-limit-param-grouping;
     }
+  }
 
-    augment "/nc:get/nc:input" {
-        description
-            "Allow the 'get' operation to use content filter
+  augment "/nc:get/nc:input" {
+    description
+      "Allow the 'get' operation to use content filter
        parameter for specifying the YANG list or leaf-list
        that is to be retrieved";
-        uses pagination-parameters;
-    }
+    uses pagination-parameters;
+  }
 
-    augment "/nc:get-config/nc:input" {
-        description
-            "Allow the 'get-config' operation to use content filter
+  augment "/nc:get-config/nc:input" {
+    description
+      "Allow the 'get-config' operation to use content filter
        parameter for specifying the YANG list or leaf-list
        that is to be retrieved";
-        uses pagination-parameters;
-    }
+    uses pagination-parameters;
+  }
 
-    augment "/ncds:get-data/ncds:input" {
-        description
-            "Allow the 'get-data' operation to use content filter
+  augment "/ncds:get-data/ncds:input" {
+    description
+      "Allow the 'get-data' operation to use content filter
        parameter for specifying the YANG list or leaf-list
        that is to be retrieved";
-        uses pagination-parameters;
-    }
+    uses pagination-parameters;
+  }
 }